America's Least Wanted - Censors

Camel fans, stay away from Camelogue, the unauthorized Camel list (unless you want to understand Camel's music), it's a choke for "humpheads", not Camel fans, IMHO. There is a good reason there are humps in that road. Those humps refer to the "humphead" gang that works that Camelogue (otherwise known as "CameBacklot" (in the free world)).

Andy Burnett (moderator/censor of the Camelogue and unauthorized (no doubt) Alan Parsons Project list, probably the same for the Grand Funk Railroad and Ambrosia lists he hosts at Roadkill Consulting (&y's own personal empire) and for the unauthorized (no doubt) Todd Rundgren list in which the moderator nazi goes by the name of Roger D. Linder and (sometimes) blames Andy Burnett when he does a chop job, actually, here's a list of Roadkill lists -

app@roadkill.com,
app-digest@roadkill.com,
app-digest@roadkill.com,
archive@roadkill.com,
awizard@roadkill.com,
awizard-digest@roadkill.com,
bak@roadkill.com,
camel@roadkill.com,
camel-digest@roadkill.com,
carpediem@roadkill.com,
digest@roadkill.com,
grand-funk@roadkill.com,
grand-funk-aliases@roadkill.com,
grand-funk-aliases-2@roadkill.com,
grand-funk-digest@roadkill.com,
old@roadkill.com,
russia@roadkill.com,
russia-digest@roadkill.com,
strangeband@roadkill.com,
strangeband-digest@roadkill.com,
torg@roadkill.com,
torg-digest@roadkill.com,
travellers@roadkill.com,
travellers-digest@roadkill.com

Andy gives you an idea of where he's coming from -
======
Subj: moderator nazi
Date: 97-07-16 15:44:33 EDT
From: burnett@topquark.roadkill.com (Andy Burnett)
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com

The list is now moderated until the discussion on the list returns to
Camel and Camel related topics.

&y
======
On Mr. Burnett's domain, he has a (supposed) user that exposes something else for us, IMHO. Check this out - About David Gerdes. Normal enough looking in ways. Except this way. See that little fish that he has at the top? If you hang out in this country, you've seen it before, the Jesus fish, as they say. IMHO, it's how one (if one belongs) identifies themselves as a member of that cult (IMHO). And, if you live in America, you've seen that symbol pop up on other places than the back of cars recently. Billboards and yellow pages advertising. In those instances, the usage is to send the message - 'You can do business with me, I'm one of you' to fellow cult members. So, you know those people don't like associating with folk that aren't a member. So, why is he on &y's domain you ask? He doesn't (if he's not Gerdes) have one of those fish symbols anywhere else on that site you say. Look again. And next time when you see Andy referred to as "&y" on his site, take the "&" and in your mind, remove the top loop, and what do you see? Looks a little like a little Jesus fish to me! :-) (StanNote: these pages in no way knock real Christianity. See, they've taken the real symbol of Christianity (the cross) and replaced it with their own (the X in the fish.) As 'Flash and the Pan' would say, they made their own cross and made it to the otherside of hell (Click Here!)) Here, just in case you didn't click on the correct link, is what they're simulating with the "~" and the "&" characters -

AND dig this. The symbol for the Know-nothing movement is this - "K & N". Click that Know-nothing link. Now, I'll give you an idea of what he looks like. We aren't supposed to know that. The only way you can find that (the first picture) is if you click on a little Jesus fish on Andy's domain somewhere, in particular, at the bottom of this page - Another Roadkill User. It will take you awhile to download that 4.5 megabyte movie. If you have a band (or anything else you want to promote on the net), and this man -

(Andy Burnett - Moderator Nazi)

(Andy Burnett - Moderator Nazi)

This man in the last picture goes by the name of Tom Nicholaides, and probably lives in New Orleans, LA.

Click here for a map of the area where Tom Nicholaides apparently works - NASA's Stennis Space Center Location Map

And this may still be his current phone# - 504-649-3847

BTW: If you research the 'Stupid Right-Wing Quotes' portion of 'What's A Meta U', you'll discover that Tom is a self-declared "proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy". I immediately agreed. :-)

Oh, and Tom, I really do appreciate the old webspace loan, did you risk your job by doing that? ;-)


For the moderation of 12-24-97, I had very little upgrades here. The main thing I haven't covered, though, is that attack (on reality) by Ofir. It's as old(-fashioned) as the other (main) attack we see from Ofir, the 'straw man'. It's the reaction when someone has nailed them at something, and they want to cover it up. Camel fans (on the unofficial list) recently saw it from Ofir on 12-23-97 - " ... please stop this automatic gainsaying of every letter I send with comments. ... ". Russell Gorton chimed in - " ... Yeah, Stan, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, SHUT UP AND LAY OFF THE GUY ... ". Funny, I don't recall him saying that before. Russell continues - " ... <<(Ofir -)... While it may be extremely important for you to disagree ... > (Me -) Me, yesterday - I agree, Ofir, Shingo's post was very informative, I enjoyed it very much. << (ie; it's a 'straw-man' (he has to argue with >someone/thing that doesn't exist, because he can't handle the real thing)) (Russell -) AYEIEIEIEIEIEIIAYAYAYAYAYEIEIEIEIEYEYAIAIAIAA! IF you say 'Straw Man' again I will come and find you and force you to EAT A straw man. A full sized one. Made out of real straw. With dung still attached." (The simple response was to inform Russell how important he made me feel by letting me know that I'm worth a trip from Michigan to Texas! I also thanked him.)

(Guess what. Amway's involved in the right-wing conspiracy. Check out this who's who of folk involve in the war on the arts/music - Amway Fans Click Here! I was SO surprised to find this out! ;-) )

To show how rediculous this type of attack is, I present one of my funnier posts to an AOL message board (folk on both sides will get some laughs), I was surrounded by a Liberatarian (what might be best described as) 'gang,' check it out - Ritundancy. Also check out that 'gang' link, as it shows that this claim that you hear (the claim on a specialized list (like the unofficial Camel list) that there are other places to go and discuss politics without being harrassed) is untrue (the Coffee Shop was supposed to be a apolitical area for the purpose of discussing politics. Actually, they've invaded many more forums than you or I would care to think about (but you better!))

BTW: This is what Ofir was covering-up -

Mr. Ofir Zwebner (on 12-22-97) - " ... Susan refrained from answering direct questions about the subject, as she felt I was too involved and that it has become a personal debate. She also expressed her unwillingness to discuss politics. ... "

I researched a little (which was *EXTREMELY* easy (but, I log all my incoming and outgoing e-mail. I suggest you do the same) and found that Mr. Ofir Zwebner said this (on 8-2-97) - " ... Anyway, I wanted to know if Camel ment to express a specific political position. Susan surely knows, she wrote the lyrics. However her answer left some thing to think over... Me: Susan, do you consider Camel to be a 'political' group, meaning: do you think Camel's artistic output defines a certain political concept? Is there a specific leading line you cling to when handling politics in the lyrics? Susan: No."

Camel fans may remember something I said early on in this thing (on 7-16-97) - " ... Folks, follow the bouncing balls. ... ". You better believe, the balls are still bouncing on the Camelogue list!



On to the old war. As of 8-4-97 Ofir has removed his "Disclaimer". Here's the way it used to be (and what I was responding to (at that time)) -Ofir's Old Front Page. Here's the part of the log he referred to - Ofir's Log.

Here's the Required Reading. Read it after you complete reading this document. And here's his site as of today - Ofir Zwebner's site. And if you're on the list and you just want to see my posts that have been censored, simply do a search by (CENSORED) on this top page.

Folks, Ofir Zwebner and I have carried an (intermitant) political discussion in private since about the time I came to discover that it was possible that my sequence of Rain Dances is on HoJ. I'll just give a short rundown -

Ofir wrote me and complimented me on my detective work in proving the Fritha Alone is DoorC's. I'm an honest guy, I told Ofir how I learned how to do it. I informed him that it's the same thing I do to destroy nutso right-wingers here in the states (I separate fact from fiction), that's what started our political discussion. Ofir has never acted the same (with me) since. At that time, he tried to stop listening to my evidence on Rain Dances. I'll now skip the many gory details, and get to the present.

This time, I wrote Ofir to thank him for his public support of my position that Camel fans are above the need of a censor (his " ... Dear Censor ... " comment (see below)), and as usual, Ofir couldn't handle me thinking that he was agreeing with me (part of the gory details I left out) so he started attacking me again. He tells a tiny truth, then backs it up with a bunch of junk (ie; he makes mountains out of molehills. That could also be a description of Ofir's public attack on me.) So in the middle of this ongoing, Ofir attack, I defend (and I also try to get him to do something about the moderation of the Camelogue list), Ofir sends me a rambling response, my response. Here's one of my responses to it. Notice the subject (my title) -
======
Subj: Re: Here we go again -
Date: 07/18/97
To: ofirz@eng.tau.ac.il

Sorry for the extra e-mail on this subject.

In a message dated 97-07-18 11:47:39 EDT, you write:

<

This from someone, who on 5-26-97 wrote me and told me - "One of them, which I have particularly grown to hate, is such an ugly, religious son of a bitch bastard that I can tell you, should I walk up the street with my gun I would shoot him without a second doubt."

Stan
======
And Ofir likes to get deeper -
======
Subj: Re: Here we go again -
Date: 97-07-21 23:30:37 EDT
From: ofirz@eng.tau.ac.il (Ofir Zwebner)
Reply-to: ofirz@eng.tau.ac.il
To: StanSquncr@aol.com

According to your game (and apparently age as well):

I won.

I'll call my big brother Moshe and he'll beat you up.

What a giveaway.
======
I didn't know you had a brother, Ofir!

So, if anyone thinks this is a 'Stan vs. the World/Moderator' thing, you should know, it's really a 'Censors vs. Us' thing. Suffice to say, Ofir didn't win, and I let him know that.

Please read my whole response.

But before that, on this censorship thing for a second, this is the last post of mine that the moderator has censored -
======
(CENSORED) Subj: Ofir's Attack
Date: 07/27/97
To: camel@roadkill.com

Hi all. I have a response to Ofir's attack on me (on his front page). It's in an appropriate place, on my website at - http://members.aol.com/StanSquncr/ofir.html (StanNote: which was linked to a previous version of this page) if anyone is interested.

Stan
======

And here's my response to Ofir's "disclaimer" -

Ofir - <

This is untrue. Since July 16th, the Camelogue list had been "censored" by Andy Burnett. Not only that, it was censored long before that.

Here's Ofir Zwebner on July 16th addressing his moderator (in a post convienently left out of his record) - " ... Dear Censor ... "

Here's the (appropriate) definition of "moderate" (from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition) -

moderate 1 : to act as a moderator
moderator 1 : one who arbitrates

And "censor"

censor : to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable

So, Andy was examining our posts, looking for stuff he found objectionable, and when he started finding it, he turned on (what they call) moderation mode. We've been under the rule of censorship the whole time.

<

I've been "defending" myself, Ofir!

<<... by one Stanley Rosenthal, who claimed that political discussion was a part of a Camel mailing list ... >

That is a lie. I never claimed that "political discussion was a part of a Camel mailing list". I claimed that Camel mixed in politics (through writing about war and the after effects of war) and I claimed that Camel writes about "freedom" (via my introduction of the lyrics to Refugee) (as part of my defense). Those points still remain uncontested.

< and he points to this - "I suggest that you stop holding back."

That suggestion, was only aimed at Dan (who claimed that he was "holding back"), as when someone is repressing something, it's bad for them. It certainly was not any kind of suggestion for others to attack me.

<<... mostly by writing offensive posts [1][2]. >

Here's 1 - "The rest of Tim's response isn't worth responding to."

That's offensive? Poor Baby! Not only, that post was written AFTER Andy turned on "moderation" mode, yet Ofir presents it as if it were a reason Andy turned on "moderation" mode. Let me ask you this, Ofir. If that post was a reason the moderator turned on moderation, then how come he passed it?

And he pointed to parts of this part of this post for 2 (notice, it's also AFTER "moderation") -
======
From: StanSquncr@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:31:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: CAMEL

In a message dated 97-07-17 17:51:13 EDT, timothy@snsc.dri.edu (Timothy L. Buchanan) writes:

<< I'd say Andy and Colin did a fairly good job of separating music and politics in Harbour of Tears!!

I'd say, timothy@snsc.dri.edu is doing a fairly good job of failing to separate fact from fiction ;-). Say Tim, are you related to Pat? It appears that you think just like him.
======
Uh, Ofir, I think Tim took that as a compliment. ;-) He certainly didn't complain about it, instead he tried an aweful impression of a 'reductio ad absurdum' (reduction to absurdity). 2 continued -
======
It was Andy and SUSAN that wrote (most of) HoT. No surprised, that someone who's trying to get others to shut up, also would try to avoid giving credit (where due) to a woman.

<

Obviously Tim doesn't read the list. He must only be here for 1 purpose, to censor opposing opinion (so it appears). ...
======
Tim's "fact" wasn't a fact. I consider posts that try to pass off fiction (as fact) to be offensive. And if you consider my posts to be offensive, Ofir, I have a suggestion for you. Remember this old saying - 'Sticks and Stones, may break my bones, but words will never hurt me'

<

That is an outright lie. Some people wrote saying that politics doesn't belong on the Camelogue list. And because of the censorship of the list, no-one but the moderator knows how many people tried to post opposing opinion (or the same opinion, for that matter.) And, as the astute Camel fans will notice, 4 - 6 occurred AFTER Andy turned on "moderation" mode.

<<... but Stan didn't stop pushing the discussion into political issues. >

Another outright lie. I never pushed the discussion into political issues, I just never stopped defending myself. As others did, I steered it in a direction of 'what's proper for a Camel list.' Here I am on 7-16 - "So, just out of curiosity, Dan, what else would you not like to see discussed on the Camel list? And who's discussing "politics"? We are discussing 'those that use nazi methods' "

If Ofir will look at the whole record, he'll find, that as soon as the attacks on me ended, the (supposed) political "discussion" was over until Ofir reopened these issues (on the list. I was still defending myself from Ofir's attacks in private.)

This includes one of my (non)responses -
======
(CENSORED) - Subj: Re: camel-digest V1 #331
Date: 07/19/97
To: camel@roadkill.com

In a message dated 97-07-19 01:50:09 EDT, tim_miller2@juno.com writes:

<<>The rest of Tim's response isn't worth responding to.

Stan

see.. this is where politics gets us :) alas o great anarchy, noone understands you...

And I'm not going to respond to that either.

<<... someone also mentioned the "bootleg" controversy, and the whole royalty>
issue. has anyone else noticed how, the more a band allows it's fans to
create and spread live material, the more of a cult following they seem
to bring? just an observation... til next time,

Would the Greatful Dead be one of those bands? I know they have alot of bootlegs (and I think the band doesn't mind, can't recall for sure though). And they certainly have a large cult following. (StanNote: If I was really trying to cause trouble, at that point, I would've suggested that perhaps Camel DOES have a "cult" following! ;-) )

Stan
======
<<... he claimed this [my] Camel site should encourage the discussion of political issues on the mailing list ... >

That is an outright lie.

<<... and, claiming the mailing list operator was using Nazi methods, that I sould open an alternative mailing list that will serve [what he called] "the true" Camel avid fans. >

Ofir missquotes me. I did suggest that he start a list (with no censorship) as an alternative. Us Camel fans are (supposed to be) above telling other Camel fans (or anyone else) to shut up. But what I said about the fans, was ' ... "the real Camel fans" will leave the the other list, it's too boring.'

<

Ofir lies again. I did suggest that he would lose my claim (at his link on my links page) that Ofir has the "best Camel discography" of any site on the net, if he didn't stop writing me in private with his garbage. He then stopped writing me in private, so the description remained for awhile. I've now removed Ofir from the "World Whatsa Web" for slander, and I've removed that description, because of Ofir's failure to apologize for his slander. Unfortunately, I've had to remove the link for other good reasons, the only link is now on this page.

<<... he will remove the title he has given my site from his favourite links page, which said this [my] site was 'the Best Camel Page on the Net'. >

I've never claimed that Ofir has 'the Best Camel page on the Net'. Fact is, I now think that my Camel site has the best Camel page on the net. Not only that, I think it's 'A MOST Important Page on the Net!'
.
<

You need to look in the mirror, Ofir. You see, because you aren't telling the truth in this area, you now lack credibily as an expert witness in other areas.

<<... I don't consider threats when deciding on my political views and social considerations. >

Then how come you stopped writing me in private, Ofir?

<

<<... Despite Stan's claims, I'm not willing to make my Camel Site carry out any of his personal vandettas against other people nor present any political opinions. >

Ofir sure has a "personal vandetta", he simply didn't call it that. He called it a "disclaimer".

The only suggestions (which Ofir invites, I do believe (StanNote: I just checked his site for my own accuracy, he doesn't invite suggestions. Check out how Ofir (used to) word this (from his Editor's Notes) - " ... If you find stuff that's irrelevant or offending in your opinion - please write me about it, so I could make this page better. ... ")) to Ofir reguarding how he runs his website, was for 1 purpose. To break the moderation mode (which had gone on long after it returned to regular topics.) I have nothing personal against Andy Burnett(/Tom Nicholaides), I simply don't like some of his actions. I wouldn't even have that much of a problem with the moderation mode, if it was only used as a last resort (rather than as a first resort) and if it was called for what it really is (censorship mode).

<< I'm sorry to fill you in on all this futile subject, but this is because Stan called me a fraud ...

Ofir, I don't need to call you a fraud, the evidence YOU provided speaks for itself (remember Ofir - 'Sticks and Stones ... ;-) ). I haven't even called Mellow Records a fraud, the I believe the evidence speaks for itself (see Louie Mastro - Hero! page). (Just about) Whenever you would tell me something untrue, I would call you on it, but I've never called you a "fraud".

<<... and jumping between opinions to make other people like him. >

Another fabrication. I told Ofir that he was playing both sides of the fence. I never suggested that he does this "to make other people like him". Fact is, I think it works in the opposite direction.

<

Well, not really, Ofir, you see, besides believing that I have a right to defend myself, the only position I (presently) claim (in the Camel world), is one that Camel fans are ABOVE the need of censorship in our discussions. And here's Ofir's position on the list, a sarcastic remark aimed at the "moderator" on 7-16 (in a post that Ofir left out of his record) - " ... Dear Censor ... "

Folks, if you read the parts of the record that Ofir supplied, you'll see that the topic was really, 'what's appropriate for the Camelogue list'. I certainly think THAT's an appropriate subject for the Camelogue list! What Ofir left out, was that there was a continuation of normal Camel discussion throughout, that he left out (so have I).

Also, Ofir left out a few posts, and the ending (on the list) to the whole affair. In the interest of the truth, here's the rest (including a couple of posts of mine that were censored), starting with the post that started it all (also left out of Ofir's record). Read to the bottom for the conclusion.

Oh yea, a correction. I occasionally blew it and spelled HoT as HoJ. Thanks for understanding why I had HoJ on the brain.
@@@@@
Subj: Spain, a historic event
Date: 97-07-15 13:26:30 EDT
From: jcarpi@posta.unizar.es (Joaquin de Carpi)
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com

Hi to all:
This weekend has been a historic date in the History of Spain. Millions of
Spanish people (the biggest demonstrations challenghing the fear, the
comfort and the lazyness filled the streets and the squares of all the
towns without violence, singing and shouting against the murderers of ETA
and their nazi methods and demanding peace and freedom. In the Basque
Country (with a nationalist party in its regional government) the Police
(Ertzantza) alway work with a mask, a balaclava in their heads to avoid the
ETA and their supporters identify them and damage their families.
Yesterday, the Ertzainas (the members of the Ertzantza) took off their
balaclavas to show they have fear no more. People in the street kissed and
embraced them. I recall the images I had seen in the documentaries about
the liberation of France or Italy from the Nazis in the Second World War.
I don't know if all this will be unuseful. But I must tell you that
yesterday I feel myself proud to be a Spaniard. And I thought I must say it
loud, say it clear also here in the net. And I hope nobody be bothered by
sharing my feelings with you, fellow citizens of Camelot.

=============================
Dr. Joaquin de Carpi Perez
Area de Derecho Procesal
Facultad de Derecho
Universidad de Zaragoza
Ciudad Universitaria s/n
50009 ZARAGOZA
SPAIN
e-mail adress: jcarpi@posta.unizar.es
=============================================
@@@@@
That was the big setup, IMHO.

(BTW: Listen for conversation including Dr. Joaquin De Carpi Perez, IMHO, on Kit Watkins 'SunStruck' towards the end of 'Third Planet Suite')
@@@@@
Subj: WOW, back to Camel...
Date: 97-07-16 18:11:32 EDT
From: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com (Chris Winkley)
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com

Hey, Camelheads...

Isn't it fascinating that we go for days at a time with no postings, then
all it takes is one person to post an off topic message and the airwaves
are flooded with messages?

On a Camel thread, I happen to be a BIG, MAJOR fan of Andy's guitar
playing. In all the compilations I have (yes, I believe I have ALL the
"official" Camel releases, even some "unofficial" recordings) the selection
often ranges towards the keyboard end of the spectrum. What I wish I had
was a compilation of some of the hottest guitar works all on one CD. Does
anyone else feel the same way?

In this age of high technology, it would (should) be easy for a person with
a ROM burner to produce a 70 minute compilation. Has anyone done this?
Any opinions on the legal issues? I know that many may scream "copyright
violation", but to the best of my knowledge, taping (2nd generation
quality, no random access) is perfectly legal if you own the original and
aren't selling and/or playing for profit. The same should be true for CDs,
correct?

Anyone care to play "what if" for a track listing?

Looking forward...Chris

                              \\\|///
                            \\  ~ ~  //
                             (  @ @  )
---------------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-----------------------------
!                                                                   !
!                E-Mail: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com                  !
!                        Chris J. Winkley                           !
!                 Director of Project Management                    !
!                  ADP, Inc. - 2525 SW 1st Ave.                     !
!                   Portland, OR  97201-4702                        !
!                     Phone:  503-402-3977                          !
!                                                                   !
!         "We do not inherit the earth from our parents,            !
!                we borrow it from our children"                    !
!                                                                   !
-----------------------------------Oooo.-----------------------------
                         .oooO     (   )
                         (   )      ) /
                          \ (      (_/
                           \_)

@@@@@@
Subj: RE: moderator nazi
Date: 97-07-17 08:06:31 EDT
From: DFisher@cerplex.com (Fisher, David)
To: "'camel@roadkill.com'" "'StanSquncr@aol.com'"


Your web site administrator seems to be a Mr Shah Dupp @ Yourface.com!

----------
From: StanSquncr@aol.com[SMTP:StanSquncr@aol.com]
Sent: 17 July 1997 08:25
To: camel@roadkill.com
Subject: Re: moderator nazi

In a message dated 97-07-16 15:44:33 EDT, burnett@topquark.roadkill.com(Andy
Burnett) writes:

<
Camel and Camel related topics.

Well, the topic is back to Camel, and since (after this letter) I really have
nothing further to say on the subject (because any point I had was brought
into such strong focus by the moderator/censor), except, Thanks to the
"moderator" for passing the longer of my 2 letters of defense. The other was
a one-line response to Mr. JackF0@AOL.com, not important enough to worry
about. I'll send that to Jack in private.

Well, my last word, of course, is on my own forum. If anyone is interested,
it's on my "What's-A-Meta-U" political webpage at -
http://members.aol.com/StanSquncr/whatsa.html

Oh, you've never seen me advertise my political webpage on the Camel list?
Funny, it's been around since I've had my website! [grin]


So, because it's now all said, I request to the "moderator", that we return
to "unmoderated" mode, and if so, I promise not to bring up political
discussion, and I'll even try not to respond when someone else does. BUT, I
reserve the right to defend myself.

Stan,
What's-A-Meta-U?
@@@@@@
Subj: Re: camel-digest V1 #329
Date: 97-07-17 09:01:34 EDT
From: Tiesmaki@banff.net (Brett Tiesmaki)
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com



I agree with Dan. Please, do not start political discussions in this group.
I've enjoyed all the info on progressive rock that's come through but I'll
drop of the list in a heart beat if I start receiving a bunch of political
rhetoric.

Camel is #1


***************************


Ditto. Let's stick to the music......
"...we're just musicians, here to thin the thickness of your skin..." (Max
Webster)

Brett Tiesmaki
Banff, Ab.
Canada
@@@@@@
Subj: Re: camel-digest V1 #333
Date: 97-07-18 10:00:52 EDT
From: Tiesmaki@banff.net (Brett Tiesmaki)
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com

Re: Stan

Kindly cut the crap, quit ranting and let us all discuss CAMEL...this is,
after all, the Camel mailing list, not Stan's Soapbox Forum. If you can't,
please find another list and leave us in peace. Thank you...
"...we're just musicians, here to thin the thickness of your skin..." (Max
Webster)

Brett Tiesmaki
Banff, Ab.
Canada
@@@@@@
(CENSORED)- Subj: Re: camel-digest V1 #333
Date: 07/18/97
To: camel@roadkill.com

In a message dated 97-07-18 10:00:52 EDT, Tiesmaki@banff.net (Brett Tiesmaki) writes:

<< Kindly cut the crap, quit ranting and let us all discuss CAMEL...this is, after all, the Camel mailing list, not Stan's Soapbox Forum. >

Just as soon as everyone quits telling me to shut-up, I'll be off of the soapbox that you place me on.

Stan
@@@@@@
Subj: Re: camel-digest V1 #331
Date: 97-07-19 01:50:09 EDT
From: tim_miller2@juno.com
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com

The rest of Tim's response isn't worth responding to.

Stan

see.. this is where politics gets us :) alas o great anarchy, noone
understands you...

anyway, on to business. i've mentioned the version of "nobody knows" on
a live tape of mine that doesn't seem to be available in any form
elsewhere. if Ofir would like, i could attempt recording it into some
sort of sound file for his page, for peoples' downloading pleasure. i'm
not sure what the capabilities of my new computer are. perhaps i could
only record it on .wav format... worth it or no?

someone also mentioned the "bootleg" controversy, and the whole royalty
issue. has anyone else noticed how, the more a band allows it's fans to
create and spread live material, the more of a cult following they seem
to bring? just an observation... til next time,

Tim Miller
tmm8977@rit.edu
tim_miller2@juno.com
http://www.rit.edu/~tmm8977
@@@@@@
Subj: Re: camel-digest V1 #332
Date: 97-07-19 03:25:09 EDT
From: ACOIRO87@aol.com
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com, camel-digest@roadkill.com

In a message dated 97-07-18 00:43:11 EDT, owner-camel-digest@roadkill.com
writes:

<<
<< I'd say Andy and Colin did a fairly good job of separating music and
politics in Harbour of Tears!! And I haven't read any bad reviews in
this forum because of that fact.


HOT was a pretty good album, but musically Dust & Dreams had more to listen
for.
I liked it better.

Angelo
@@@@@@
Subj: y'all are just plain silly (my political two cents)
Date: 97-07-19 03:28:41 EDT
From: sasjjw@wnt.sas.com (Jim Watts)
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com ('camel@roadkill.com')

This whole political furball cracks me up. You must realize at this
point that any time you get a bunch of folks together to talk about a
particular topic, there will ALWAYS be asides, digressions, and
off-topic statements thrown in. It's human nature. It is simply not
something you can prevent. So let it slide - or better yet if you feel
compelled to respond then take it offline. Who cares what someone else's
political leanings are? Big Deal. Hey - I don't like a lot of politics
either - but it's not like this mail alias has heavy bandwidth or
anything. If you don't like all the individual messages then switch to
digest form (that's my preferred style) so you can then easily skip over
the messages with little or no Camel content.

Personally, I don't mind a little off topic threads now and then - it
shows that the members are real people and have lives outside of this
group.

Another funny aspect of this whole thing is that the messages saying "no
politics" or whatever far outnumber the actually political messages. The
chain reaction is not caused by the political messages - it's caused by
everyone chiming in sayin' "no political messages!" Y'all are just plain
silly! (StanNote: That point remains uncontested)

Back on the Musical Thread side - I'm interested in knowing what are the
rest of the tracks Greg has on his audio-benchmark CD-ROM, anyone else
curious?

Jim Watts

@@@@@@
Subj: Re: CAMEL
Date: 97-07-19 03:38:26 EDT
From: StanSquncr@aol.com
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: camel@roadkill.com

In a message dated 97-07-18 03:22:51 EDT, timothy@snsc.dri.edu (Timothy L.
Buchanan) writes:

<
earlier today as it was totally uncalled for (??). I therefore concede and
let the anti-Nazi crusader have THE LAST WORD.

Where's the crusade? I'm simply defending myself.

<

Check out my political website, you might find out. You'all know where it is.

<<... evil ... lurkster's ... >

Being a little repetitive there? ;-) (BTW: ... The (real) definition (of lurk) was just as much placed out
there for the benifit of those who lurk (by internet mis-definition) for
reasons other than evil purposes.)

<

Folks, sometimes, people speak the truth, with the expectation that you
aren't going to believe them. I have no idea as to whether that applies to
Tim or not.

<<... who was too ignorant to understand the lyrics to nude ... >

No, that was me! ;-) I'm the guy who thought Nude was British.

<<... and stationary traveler ... >

I STILL don't understand how anyone can take a position that music and
politics don't go together. I take that back, I think I figured it out.
They understand exactly how effective music can be (at affecting political
change) and they don't want musicians to use that voice. In my view, it's an
attempt to censor musicians (like Susan Hoover and Andrew Latimer) so they'll
be too afraid to write anything contraversial (for fear of upsetting the
'closed-minded' and losing business). And I've come to discover, it's the
"truth" that's contraversial (to the noisemakers).

<

No, only those that want to speak on a subject that you don't care for.
Well, I don't have any interest in many of the bands that get mentioned on
this list. And do you know how I would feel if I complained about that
non-Camel content? I'd be "whining" (and I'd be attempting censorship).

<

This one is worth getting Tim's original statement, here's what he said - <<
And I haven't read any bad reviews in this forum because of that fact.

That "fact" wasn't such a fact (part of it included the elimination of Susan
Hoover from the credit for HoJ). And any readers of this list have seen
Camel fans at their brightest moments (when they have been honest enough to
report on Camel's flaws (including HoJ flaws)).


And matt@debris.com (matthew mcglynn) - <

This sure looks like a "flame" from Matt.

<

Regular readers (including Matt, I believe) know how much Camel content I
(normally) contribute.

<

I might just join you, Matt! I don't like hanging out with a bunch of
whiners. Thankfully, there are other types around, and that's why I'm still
here.

Stan
@@@@@@

That was the end of the attacks (and my defense from those attacks)(well, until Ofir brought our private war into your living rooms), but there was a little cover-up action -

@@@@@@
Subj: Maybe Ofir can help ?
Date: 97-07-23 11:42:37 EDT
From: Lary.James@jksmtp.nsc.com
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: Camel@roadkill.com

I am still waiting ( ever so patiently on hot pins & needles ) to hear about any
news re: the status of the HoT Tour Video. I was at the Palo Alto, CA show and
it was probably the best Camel performance I've ever seen.

Also, Andy must have bizillions of old and more recent photos of the band at
various stages of Camel's evolution / lineup ( both performing and posed shots
). It would be really great if he and Susan could make some Camel posters out of
some of these classics, and make them available through CP. ( I prefer the
on-stage shots, myself. )Then we could grace our walls with greatness.

Has anyone been able to substantiate the rumor of the Geffen Boxed set ? I have
always wished for something like that, provided it is re-mastered to the utmost
level of quality. The only problem is that Andy & Peter & Co. probably wouldn't
see a penny from it !

In closing, I have sent 2 postings prior to this one. I didn't get a digest(ed)
copy of the first one where I introduced myself, but I think my mail server was
down that day because I did get a personal response or two. My second posting
was a comment and some observations re: the political tirades, and I didn't see
that posting show up either, possibly due to it being "moderated" out due to
non-Camel content. (?). Pardon me for whining, but it seems there were a lot of
patently offensive messages that DID make it onto the list, wheras mine was
meant to be inoffensive.

I hope this one goes through. If not.................... I'm either doing
something wrong or need to find (start) another Camel mailing list !

Thanks,

Lary James
lary.james@nsc.com
@@@@@@@
Subj: Re: Maybe Ofir can help ?
Date: 97-07-23 13:00:21 EDT
From: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com (Chris Winkley)
Sender: owner-camel@roadkill.com
To: Lary.James@jksmtp.nsc.com
CC: camel@roadkill.com

Lary...

Perhaps something wrong with your mailer. I don't recall seeing an
introduction from you, but WELCOME, this one came through!!!

P.S. Despite the occasional non-Camel content on this list, it's
"infrequently" traveled and I don't believe our moderator has ever censored
any messages.

Looking forward...Chris
=======================
At 01:21 PM 7/22/97 -0700, you wrote:


In closing, I have sent 2 postings prior to this one. I didn't get a
digest(ed)
copy of the first one where I introduced myself, but I think my mail
server was
down that day because I did get a personal response or two. My second posting
was a comment and some observations re: the political tirades, and I
didn't see
that posting show up either, possibly due to it being "moderated" out due to
non-Camel content. (?). Pardon me for whining, but it seems there were a
lot of
patently offensive messages that DID make it onto the list, wheras mine was
meant to be inoffensive.

I hope this one goes through. If not.................... I'm either doing
something wrong or need to find (start) another Camel mailing list !

Thanks,

Lary James
lary.james@nsc.com
@@@@@@@
(CENSORED)Subj: Re: Maybe Ofir can help ?
Date: 07/23/97
To: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com,Lary.James@jksmtp.nsc.com
CC: camel@roadkill.com,ofirz@eng.tau.ac.il

In a message dated 97-07-23 13:00:21 EDT, cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com writes:

<

P.S. Despite the occasional non-Camel content on this list, it's "infrequently" traveled and I don't believe our moderator has ever censored any messages.

Looking forward...Chris

Welcome Lary. I love Chris' message, don't you? He usually seems to say more than one thing! Like, back on 6-21-97 he welcomed someone else - <

Why thank you, Chris! ;-) (StanNote: Actually, I wasn't engaged in any kind of off-topic discussion back then, that's why I winked)

On 7-16-97, Chris (in that post with that GREAT drawing) said - << Isn't it fascinating that we go for days at a time with no postings, then all it takes is one person to post an off topic message and the airwaves are flooded with messages? ...

That's because, if you only have 1 topic (even if it's on the greatest band on the face of the planet), a conversation is boring. So, when you get the digressions, the conversation then becomes interesting, and you get a flood of messages.

P.S: Don't be a Llama fan, be a Camel fan. (see Ofir Zwebner's website's humor section.)

Stan,
Stan and the Sequencers
@@@@@@
The fact that my response was censored should prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to Chris, that the list is under the rule of censorship.

Now, since everyone else missed it, here's part of what Dr. Joaquin de Carpi Perez said in that first post - " ... But I must tell you that yesterday I feel myself proud to be a Spaniard. And I thought I must say it loud, say it clear also here in the net."

"And I thought I must say it loud, say it clear also here in the net."

What can I say? I totally agree!

"And I hope nobody be bothered by sharing my feelings with you, fellow citizens of Camelot."

And I wrote the Honorable Dr. Carpi-Perez (a professor of Law, teaches Civil and Criminal Procedure AND works as a substitute magistrate), a conservative, and said, " ... you should never feel you have to apologize for speaking your mind."

And I thought it might be interesting to throw this in -
======
West Berlin (Lyrics by Susan Hoover) - Stationary Traveller

Feel a chill in the dark, twilight falls
Feel the beat in your heart, danger calls
Up to the rooftop, out in the rain ...

Well I'm planning it out, day by day
There's no room for doubt, just one way
Up to the rooftop, out in the rain, oh yea
And I'm looking out over West Berlin
Feeling freer now than I've ever been
When the sun sets over West Berlin
I'll be leaving, I can't come back again
And I'm looking out over West Berlin, West Berlin

In the flood of the light, safety will shine
We'll be high out of sight, on steel cable line
Up to the rooftop, out in the rain, oh yea
And I'm looking out over West Berlin
Feeling freer now than I've ever been
When the sun sets over West Berlin
I'll be free again
======
And here's the Required Reading.

And folks, while you're here, check out my sequences. Here's my home page - Stan and the Sequencers. And you REALLY should check out this MOST Important Page on the Net!, it's VERY related. And this MOST Important Page on the Net!, it's VERY related. And this MOST Important Page on the Net!, it's VERY related. And you might even check out my political page - What's-A-Meta-U. ;-)

Stanley Rosenthal, stanneverfalls@netzero.net